A discussion at languagehat has been interesting for me. It’s about grammatical categories in Riau, which is a language/dialect spoken in Indonesia and much worked on by David Gil.
I admit that my knowledge of Indonesian is limited to talks I’ve heard about it, by Gil and others (including native Indonesian speakers, though not native Riau speakers). I’m not sure that Riau is a dialect of Indonesian, but Gil calls it Riau Indonesian, and that’s how I think of it. As I mentioned in a comment, the ethnologue seems to call it a dialect of Malay. But I’ve heard talks on Malay by native Malay speakers. All these native speakers seem to think that their languages have nouns and verbs. But then they’ve all also learned English.
An interesting pointer was also made to a thread on sci.lang about this. Since I’m not sure how well the google links work[1], I’ll quote some of the more interesting comments.
Ross Clark:
The writer of this article seems to know little or nothing about
linguistics, but has had lunch with David Gil in Leipzig and then tried
to write down what they seemed to remember.The account of English case
is bizarre:
“Many of the people who developed modern linguistics had had an
education in Latin and Greek. As a consequence, English was often
described until well into the 20th century as having six different noun
cases…”
I would be interested if anyone could cite a book written any time in
the 20th century, let alone one by a founder of modern linguistics, that
described English as having six cases.
I remember reading about this — that English had however many cases, all of which were coincidentally identical, or something. So it didn’t strike me as impossible. People said all sorts of things.
I’d also be curious to know what lies behind “tones that change the
meaning of words, which are common in Indonesian”?
Intonation as a grammatical feature, something else Gil strongly argues against. Like tone, but not quite.
I’ve heard Gil talk about Riau Indonesian a couple of times. He seemed
to be trying to suggest that it has no grammar at all — just words that
can be strung together in any order you want. Unfortunately, since even
a linguist talking to people bumps them into a higher and less
grammar-less register, the only way you can experience the real RI seems
to be to hang around down at the dock with David Gil. Which makes it
hard to evaluate his hypothesis.
I don’t think he argues something quite that harsh, though; he seems to have meanings and impossible ones, though I’m not sure how it’s derived from his almost structureless ideas.
And Larry Trask says:
Anybody know what Riau Indonesian might be? The author’s brief and
unhelpful comments make it sound like a pidgin.
The only interesting point in the article is this: is the noun/verb
contrast universal? Linguists have been debating this for decades.
Nouns and verbs are certainly the only parts of speech for which
anybody wants to claim universal status, and I have the impression
that most linguists would like to regard them as universal, but
dissenters have existed for at least half a century.
The Salishan and Wakashan languages are the favorite candidates for
languages lacking the noun/verb contrast, but there have been several
other proposals. Somebody proposed Tongan a few years ago. But it
would seem odd to me if Tongan lacked this distinction while other and
closely related Austronesian languages maintained it. And I find it
hard to believe that a dialect of Indonesian — if that’s what Riau
Indonesian is — would have lost such a central feature of the
grammar.
I do not believe that Tongan — or Tagalog (as the comments at lh suggested) — can be seriously said to not have an N/V contrast. Tagalog certainly does, and I’m almost positive Niuean (Tongan’s closest relative) does (Diane Massam studies Niuean; Yoko Otsuka studies Tongan; a huge group of people study Tagalog). I have studied Malagasy (and Tagalog) and I am quite sure it has nouns and verbs. Informal conversations make me believe that they all also contrast adjectives (in a way that seems to work for Mark Baker, though I’m not sure).[2]
I don’t know enough about the Salishan languages, so I have no comment on it. But Indonesian is Austronesian, so I’m safe(r) there.
Austronesian languages, like other language families, are very different from Indo-European. The idea of subject is ill-conceived in these languages. I call something a subject because the term is convenient, but I try to make it clear in anything I write that this is a terminological convenience, and that what I call the subject (the ang-marked thing in Tagalog[3], the thing in the final position in Malagasy) does not bear too close a relationship to what we call the subject in English. Anyone who has looked at these languages realises that the IE terms of subject and object, active and passive simply fail. So I’m not averse to seeing languages that work very differently from english.
I love it, in fact. I am fascinated by languages and by neat factoids in them.
On the other hand, I get tired of the extremes to which these are sometimes taken. Neat factoids are cool. Neat factoids that aren’t true aren’t.[4],[5]
This is my problem. The details of the language are not going to be solved by a bunch of bloggers who’ve read an article that most likely misquotes David Gil. No, my problem is what stunning lack of knowledge people have.
Saturday a friend and I met up in a city halfway between us. We were wandering down what is, probably, the main street and into weird stores. In -20 degree weather. We looked at lots of stores.
In one of them a girl at the cash found out that a customer spoke some dialect of Arabic. I forget which. She wanted to know how to say My little parrot in that language; she’d been compiling a list.[6] Fair enough. After all, the I can eat glass project amuses.
But then they went on to talk about how oh-so-very-different the languages are. Someone suggested watching Whale Rider (a very good movie) because it “used a lot of the ancient language”. (I refused to leave during this conversation; my friend watched me and laughed.) English is so . . .
There’s only one university in that school, and it has enough decent people there that the introductory linguistics courses are fairly reasonable. I am not sure why she didn’t take one. (She was obviously a student.)
It was all the worst kind of idiocy. This is what frustrates me. Other languages are fascinating in how they differ from the ones we speak. And there are good and interesting debates about it. But it always gets bogged down somewhere in the realm of mystical people from another culture, preferably across the world (Native American languages are somehow less cool), who are so unknowable that we can just sit in awe at their enviro-friendly, part of the earth language.
[1] Almost called it dejanews there. Wow. What brought my brain there? Weird. And a waste of good neurons.
[2] Enough name-dropping yet?
[3]This is not unique in clefts,which are more like Englishpseudo-clefts. But that’s irrelevant.
[4] The words for snow, an amusing variant of which set up the punchline for today’s Zits. I have a collection of amusing words-for-snow articles. I don’t care that it’s false, it amuses me.
[5] I was somewhat disappointed by the part of the Economist article that made it sound so exciting that some languages don’t have words that determine definite from indefinite nouns.
[6] I wonder if she meant it as my small parrot or my widdle-biddle parrotkins. Anyhow.