Comments on: Darwin day: in under the line http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/ this is a wolf angel & it eats the people it's supposed to help. A wolf angel is not a good angel to have looking out for you. Thu, 08 Jan 2009 04:58:44 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.1.2 By: NelC http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30487 NelC Mon, 13 Feb 2006 18:49:08 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30487 Happy Darwin Day! Happy Darwin Day!

]]> By: UberKuh http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30490 UberKuh Mon, 13 Feb 2006 19:05:25 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30490 Encouraging! Encouraging!

]]> By: ACW http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30492 ACW Mon, 13 Feb 2006 20:03:50 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30492 As a response to "Why are there still wolves?" it's better to answer "They didn't all change." It's likely that the common ancestors of dogs and wolves were, well, wolves. Dogs descend from a small population of wolves that were isolated from the rest of the species and put under intense selective pressure, so they evolved rapidly while the rest of the wolves didn't. As a response to “Why are there still wolves?” it’s better to answer “They didn’t all change.” It’s likely that the common ancestors of dogs and wolves were, well, wolves. Dogs descend from a small population of wolves that were isolated from the rest of the species and put under intense selective pressure, so they evolved rapidly while the rest of the wolves didn’t.

]]> By: wolfa http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30496 wolfa Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:23:06 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30496 ACW, yes, but it was close enough. You would have to know my father to understand how happy I was. It's possible that the pre-dog wolves changed a fair bit to becoming the current wolves (wolf evolution is not my thing). ACW, yes, but it was close enough. You would have to know my father to understand how happy I was. It’s possible that the pre-dog wolves changed a fair bit to becoming the current wolves (wolf evolution is not my thing).

]]> By: thinkingfreely http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30497 thinkingfreely Mon, 13 Feb 2006 21:36:19 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30497 This last statement (by your father) is true. However, it is a bit misleading as well. Dogs are direct descendents of wolves, thus they more than share a common ancestor with them, in the same sense that you and your cousin are direct descendents of your great grandparents, yet you more than share a common ancestor with your cousins. Your cousin's existence is not threatened whether or not your grandparents' other descendents are alive and thriving in Europe, or Alaska, or China. And, if you stay separated from those descendents long enough, and both of you are subjected to totally different selective pressures, you will diverge from one another genetically to the point that you could be seen as separate subspecies (allopatric speciation). This is what has happened to dogs and extant North American wolves. They have not yet diverged from one another so far as to be unable to interbreed (I think), but dogs and hyenas have. This last statement (by your father) is true. However, it is a bit misleading as well. Dogs are direct descendents of wolves, thus they more than share a common ancestor with them, in the same sense that you and your cousin are direct descendents of your great grandparents, yet you more than share a common ancestor with your cousins.

Your cousin’s existence is not threatened whether or not your grandparents’ other descendents are alive and thriving in Europe, or Alaska, or China. And, if you stay separated from those descendents long enough, and both of you are subjected to totally different selective pressures, you will diverge from one another genetically to the point that you could be seen as separate subspecies (allopatric speciation).

This is what has happened to dogs and extant North American wolves. They have not yet diverged from one another so far as to be unable to interbreed (I think), but dogs and hyenas have.

]]> By: marnita http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30499 marnita Mon, 13 Feb 2006 23:08:08 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30499 thinking freely! Thanks for that great explanation. May I use it? . . my sixth grade son goes to a cyberschool and many of the parents are a bit difficult to discuss science with--as in--they don't believe in it . . . Wolfa your anecdote gives me hope . . . what book did you give? oh, i see, I'll go click on it . . . I just didn't want to leave this post to find out . . . cool. thinking freely! Thanks for that great explanation. May I use it? . . my sixth grade son goes to a cyberschool and many of the parents are a bit difficult to discuss science with–as in–they don’t believe in it . . .

Wolfa your anecdote gives me hope . . . what book did you give? oh, i see, I’ll go click on it . . . I just didn’t want to leave this post to find out . . . cool.

]]> By: wolfa http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30501 wolfa Tue, 14 Feb 2006 01:46:07 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30501 Thinkingfreely, that is a good explanation. Thanks. (Really, it was a minor comment in a discussion about something else, and we did not focus on it. But I was so proud!) Marnita, the book is a coffee table book, so it's bulky to read. That said, it's nice because it's aimed at adults who don't really know about evolution (instead of adults who do or kids who don't) and it's fairly light, with pictures, and it doesn't talk down. The world needs a similar book, but more for reading and less for displaying. Thinkingfreely, that is a good explanation. Thanks. (Really, it was a minor comment in a discussion about something else, and we did not focus on it. But I was so proud!)

Marnita, the book is a coffee table book, so it’s bulky to read. That said, it’s nice because it’s aimed at adults who don’t really know about evolution (instead of adults who do or kids who don’t) and it’s fairly light, with pictures, and it doesn’t talk down. The world needs a similar book, but more for reading and less for displaying.

]]> By: josiagsjoigj http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30502 josiagsjoigj Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:03:18 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30502 Just a little more specific: Wolves have successfully filled their ecological niche for millions of years. Then, about ten thousand years ago, humans invented agriculture, which created an entirely new ecological niche: Living off the (comparitively speaking) massive amounts of excess that humans were producing and throwing away. Some wolves moved into the new human garbage dumps, and filled that completely new ecological niche. Their descendants are today's common dogs. But meanwhile, the ecological niche that wolves had successfully filled for millions of years had not disappeared, and so other wolves continued filling it. Their descendants are today's wolves. Just a little more specific:

Wolves have successfully filled their ecological niche for millions of years. Then, about ten thousand years ago, humans invented agriculture, which created an entirely new ecological niche: Living off the (comparitively speaking) massive amounts of excess that humans were producing and throwing away.

Some wolves moved into the new human garbage dumps, and filled that completely new ecological niche. Their descendants are today’s common dogs.

But meanwhile, the ecological niche that wolves had successfully filled for millions of years had not disappeared, and so other wolves continued filling it. Their descendants are today’s wolves.

]]> By: Sergio http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30504 Sergio Tue, 14 Feb 2006 02:46:28 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30504 Whenever anyone counters evolution with the "if we evolved from monkeys how come there's still monkeys around?" question, rather than using the common ancestry reply which, though correct may not be readily understandable, I find it easier to ask "If white Americans came here from Europe, how come there's still Europeans around?" Don't be surprised if the light above their heads suddenly turns on. Whenever anyone counters evolution with the “if we evolved from monkeys how come there’s still monkeys around?” question, rather than using the common ancestry reply which, though correct may not be readily understandable, I find it easier to ask “If white Americans came here from Europe, how come there’s still Europeans around?” Don’t be surprised if the light above their heads suddenly turns on.

]]> By: Dan S. http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30507 Dan S. Tue, 14 Feb 2006 06:30:13 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30507 "Then, about ten thousand years ago, humans invented agriculture, which created an entirely new ecological niche:" And when you start thinking about the post ice-age rise of civilizations this way, a whole cool new world opens up, where we're looking at this complex ecological and evolutionary interplay between a host of species, including us . . . The author of the book - Carl Zimmer - has a blog <a href="http://loom.corante.com/" rel="nofollow">here</a>. Great explanations - and the American/European one is brilliant. And good for your dad! “Then, about ten thousand years ago, humans invented agriculture, which created an entirely new ecological niche:”
And when you start thinking about the post ice-age rise of civilizations this way, a whole cool new world opens up, where we’re looking at this complex ecological and evolutionary interplay between a host of species, including us . . .

The author of the book - Carl Zimmer - has a blog here.

Great explanations - and the American/European one is brilliant.

And good for your dad!

]]> By: thinkingfreely http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30521 thinkingfreely Tue, 14 Feb 2006 18:09:59 +0000 http://wolfangel.calltherain.net/archives/2006/02/12/darwin-day-in-under-the-line/#comment-30521 What I love is when people cry back (to the common ancestry explanation, or the Europeans vs Americans explanation): "...but they're still both people!" At that point, a forehead slap and accompanying, "doh!" is in order. Especially when these same people refuse to see the enormous diversity generated within the breeds of dog artificially in a few short generations, yet just can't seem to comprehend the hominid transitions took place over MILLIONS of years and with plenty of transitionals to prove it. What I love is when people cry back (to the common ancestry explanation, or the Europeans vs Americans explanation):
“…but they’re still both people!”

At that point, a forehead slap and accompanying, “doh!” is in order. Especially when these same people refuse to see the enormous diversity generated within the breeds of dog artificially in a few short generations, yet just can’t seem to comprehend the hominid transitions took place over MILLIONS of years and with plenty of transitionals to prove it.

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